Exclusive interview: Sammartino on WWE H.O.F., Hogan, possibility of working with McMahon

Tuesday November 17, 2009 5:56 PM By Alfonso Castillo

 It would not be an exaggeration to call Bruno Sammartino one of the most important figures in WWE’s history. And some wrestling historians could make a heck of an argument as to why "one of" should be removed from that sentence. And so, each year when WWE inducts a new class into its Hall of Fame, Bruno’s absence becomes all the more conspicuous.

Sammartino is unquestionably the largest omission from the WWE Hall of Fame, and Vince McMahon is well aware of that fact. Although it seems McMahon deliberately snubbed Sammartino in the early days of the Hall of Fame when McMahon was only inducted his best friends, as the Hall grew in credibility, he too realized having one of the company’s biggest drawing acts in history was essential. But Sammartino has balked so far.

While doing some reporting for an obituary on the late Capt. Lou Albano, I had the privilege of interviewing Sammartino by phone. After talking about Albano for several minutes, I mentioned to the legendary two-time World Wide Wrestling Federation Champion that I had recently written an article in which I argued that WWE should induct him into the Hall of Fame regardless of whether Bruno gave his blessing or not. Bruno quite vehemently disagreed. A rather lively discussion ensued.

I should mention to you, as I did before hand to Bruno, that – for all intents and purposes – I was taking off my reporter’s hat for this conversation. Rather, as a wrestling fan, I wanted to engage in a debate about why Bruno should accept WWE’s invitation to be part of the Hall of Fame. And, as you might sense by the end of the interview, I’d like to think we made a little bit of progress.

Unfortunately, the first few minutes of my taped conversation with Bruno are largely inaudible, making it impossible for me to transcribe it. A lot of the points that were made early in our conversation were later reiterated, as you’ll see. But basically, Bruno began by telling me the story of the last time he met with Vince McMahon in 2005.

Bruno said he was filming some sort of documentary on his life in Pittsburgh, and the filmmakers had the idea of interviewing him inside a wrestling ring. As it happened, WWE was coming to town, and someone had the idea of reaching out to the company and asking permission to use one of its rings for the interview. WWE officials were agreeable, but one of the conditions was that Bruno agree to a sit down with Vince McMahon. Bruno said he was reluctant, but on the insistence of his attorney, he agreed to the meeting.

At the meeting, Bruno said he raised the issue of the fact that McMahon was willing to pay six-and-seven figures to celebrities to make appearances, but only threw scraps at wrestling legends like himself. He told McMahon off during the meeting, and refused to do business together.

Bruno went on to say that agreeing to take part in the Hall of Fame would betray everything he has said publicly in recent years, and that fans constantly go up to him and support his stance. I made the point that Bret Hart showed that it was possible to take part in the Hall of Fame while still keeping your distance from WWE and endorsing the product. Bruno said the Hall was basically a joke, and pointed out that McMahon even inducted his old limo driver, James Dudley, who he said was a nice guy. He also pointed out the fact that there actually is no physical Hall of Fame – a point he repeats later.

I agreed that Hall began as a farce, but said that WWE had made strides in legitimizing it over the years. And while some questionable people still get inducted (I singled out Koko B. Ware), it has largely come to be recognized as a fairly prestigious and legitimate Hall of Fame.

The interview picks up where he again discusses that McMahon paid Mike Tyson "three and a half million dollars" for his WrestleMania XIV appearance.

Bruno Sammartino: That’s what he got. And then he gives a Killer Kowalski or a Dominic Denucci who spent 30 years in the business $1,000 or $1,500. That’s disrespectful of the people who made this business.

Alfonso Castillo: Well, what do you say then to the guy who accepts it – to the Dominic Denuccis?

BS: You mean the money?

AC: Yeah, I mean certainly a lot of guys are on those legends contracts. They make appearances for WWE. They’ll be happy to take that money. Are they somehow selling themselves out by associating themselves with WWE?

BS: Oh, no. I don’t judge anybody as far as that goes because I don’t know what their finances are. I don’t if they really need to or if they’re in need of being seen with the crowds or whatever. I don’t know what their motivations are because I certainly don’t question any of them and I’ve never asked them for any reason. I think it’s insulting and, personally, I would never do it. They gave guys like Pete Rose, I understand, three or four hundred thousand dollars and some other football players and show biz characters hundreds of thousands of dollars. And he’s going to give a wrestler $2,500, $2,00, maybe $2,500. Personally – and I’ve never said it because I don’t want to judge anybody – but I’d say shame on them for letting them getting away with that kind of garbage.

AC: But, for some of these guys, who else is going to give them $2,500?

BS: Can I tell you something? His (Vince McMahon Jr.’s) father had me blackballed all over the country. I had to go back to Pittsburgh and be a ditch digger because I had a wife and a kid. And you know why? Because I wouldn’t give in to them and their demands. Finally – six or seven months later – I wound up in Canada. That’s where I got my break – all through Canada, where I spent almost two years. And then they were kissing my behind when they heard about my success in Canada to come back to New York. And when I did come back to New York, I came on my own terms. So, nobody was more broke than I was at that time. I didn’t have two nickels to rub together, but I still wouldn’t give in to them, because I knew I was right and I knew they were wrong.

AC: Do you feel kind of the same now?

BS: Absolutely. I would feel like a prostitute if I gave in to McMahon.

AC: Well, again, this is maybe where I differ with you – the whole issue of ‘giving in’ to McMahon. I understand what you’re getting at, but I don’t know that it would be a matter of associating yourself with Vince McMahon. You couldn’t foresee a way where you could do both – where you could show up to the Hall of Fame…?

BS: I told McMahon this: "You want me in there? You really do, huh? Show me the respect you showed the non-wrestling people." The Mike Tysons, the Pete Rose, and these other ball players that he used and show biz people. Show me the kind of respect you showed those people and I’ll consider it.

AC: Well, what you’re talking about there is money. Because I can’t imagine that you think that Mike Tyson and Pete Rose were shown more respect than a lot of names that were inducted into the Hall of Fame in recent years – the Ric Flairs, or the Funks, Fred Blassie, Pedro Morales. Those people were certainly treated with more respect than Mike Tyson. I’m sure they didn’t make nearly the money that they paid Mike Tyson. So is it an issue of money for you?

BS: No, it’s not just for the money. It shows that he would value me or some other of the guys. He should value us at least as much as them, but in reality, he should value us a hell of a lot more than them, because those guys never contributed anything to this business. I’ve had three major back surgeries. I’ve had hip replacement. I’ve had knee surgery. I broke my neck in 1976. I came within a millimeter of being paralyzed from the waist down. And now this guy thinks he’s going to get me to a Hall of Fame for a couple thousand bucks?

AC: Well, can I ask you, did he ever offer you a figure? Was there ever a figure floated for doing business with him?

BS: For the Hall of Fame he offered $5,000.

AC: Really?

BS: Yeah. That’s pretty awful.

AC: Wow. That is on the low end. Well, did they ever discuss anything with you – like a DVD or anything like that?

BS: Well, what I think he told my attorney was… Because I don’t trust him for nothing, I said, "If you want to do a DVD, if you want to do whatever, fine. Let’s work out a deal that is satisfactory financially, and then go out and sell it to make all they money in the world. If you make tens times more than me, fine." But, because I don’t trust them, "Give me the money up front and then you take the chance worldwide about selling that DVD." Because, let me tell you something about what he did. He sold some of my merchandise, which he had to pay me for. He has copyrights, but he can’t just use you. What we figured out, and I told him this when I saw him, he gave me less than one-tenth of one percent of the sales.

AC: Is that right?

BS: Yeah. And you know why I couldn’t do anything about it, the lawyers told me? Because when he gave me the first check when I was still there doing some commentary, I cashed it. Once I cashed it, it was like a contract. I agreed to that. To this day, when they sell stuff and I look at the breakdown, I don’t even get one-tenth of one percent of what they sell of me.

AC: I just can’t help but think that – and I don’t know Vince McMahon – but certainly I think it’s important enough to WWE and to the McMahon family to legitimize their Hall of Fame that I would suspect that they would be able to go the extra mile, within reason, to get you into it. And I’m sure – I mean, I could picture the day that you would be inducted – I think the place would absolutely explode. You’re one of the most important people in the history of the business.

BS: You just don’t know McMahon. He has to win. And if he gives in by giving you what you’re asking for, then he will have lost in his own warped mind. That’s how the guy works. And let me tell you about my achievements. You mentioned Hulk Hogan. There is the biggest myth in the history of professional wrestling. This guy could never sell out arenas. Vince McMahon found out early when he tried to put him in back-to-back shows that the gates always drop from the first show to the second show by about 30 percent, or whatever. He’s the luckiest guy that ever came in here, because if you look at his record of the arenas he’s appeared in, he gets credits for stuff he had nothing to do with. Do you know that he even took credit for selling out Shea Stadium when I wrestled Zbyszko?

AC: Right, and he wrestled Andre.

BS: And he was a nobody then.

AC: But you can’t say that Hulk Hogan was not a draw.

BS: No, he was not a draw.

AC: Oh, stop.

BS: Wait a minute. He was a draw for an appearance. Absolutely he was a draw. But he was not a guy that you could bring back show after show to the same arena.

AC: I mean, the business has changed so much that drawing, I think as you said, means something different than when you were wrestling. Arenas are only a small part of the business now. I don’t think there’s ever been a bigger arena draw than you. What was your record of Garden sell-outs?

BS: I headlined Madison Square Garden 211 times. When they did the "greatest sports legends," I was the only one they would do, because they did a little investigating. I don’t know how many times I sold out Boston or all the other arenas because they don’t keep those records. These people checked it out and they came back with the report that I headlined the Garden 211 times and had 187 sell-outs. And even in McMahon’s magazine they did a big story – without my permission, but I don’t care about that. That’s their right to do – and they even quoted all these numbers. I remember when the father said, "Hey, we have to take advantage of this, because it’s a tremendous feat." In Boston, for example, I wrestled about 200 time. Do you know that Hulk Hogan never headlined Madison Square Garden more than 20 times in his whole career?

AC: Well, he wasn’t that full time, right? They’d have the B-shows and they’d have someone else headlining, and Hogan was sort of the special attraction.

BS: No, no, no. They tried him. I told McMahon it wasn’t going to work, and I laughed at him. I said, "This guy is so limited. He will draw you a crowd when he goes places he hasn’t been. But if you put him in the Garden this month, and then next month, and the next month, and the next month… both he and the Garden will both die, because he is so limited as far as wrestling skills and talent that there’s no way he can carry any club." He can’t. Look, he was the top guy with Time Warner (WCW), and that was the year that they lost $95 million.

AC: Is there anybody from the modern era that you would consider a draw to the point that you were a draw, like a Steve Austin?

BS: No, because I look at the arenas, not what they claim they did in merchandise.

AC: Well, even the arenas. I think Steve Austin sold out tons of arenas during his run.

BS: No, they may have sold out one time around, but they never could come back and sell out. The big draws were (Antonino) Rocca – if you remember that name – before me. He was a draw. Verne Gagne throughout Minnesota always drew very, very well. You had guys like Ray Stevens out of California. Kowalski was a draw. Dick the Bruiser was a draw. These were guys that continually came to the same arenas and did big business. That’s a draw. Not somebody that you publicize like crazy and you bring him in for one show and it sells out. But then when you bring him back for the next show, it drops 30 or 40 percent, and then you pull him out of there altogether and go to a different joint because you can’t keep going with this one. And Steve Austin was like that. So was the Rock. None of them were consistent enough that McMahon could maintain the arena. That’s why they’re not at the arenas.

AC: Again, I think part of the issue is how much the business model changed. But would you dispute that Steve Austin and the Rock in their time, and Hulk Hogan in his time, were the anchors and the centerpieces of two of WWE’s biggest boon periods in its history?

BS: I call that the drug era, because that’s when all the freaks came in with the drugs and the vulgarity. Here’s – what’s his name – Austin. Here he was in the ring. My kid calls me up. He says, "Hey dad, put on the TV." This was years ago. He was the world champion. He’s got a can of beer. He’s standing in the ring. And on television they’re bleeping out every other word because he’s using the foulest of language. And they show the camera, and I see in the audience – I call them stupid parents with their six and seven and eight year old children witnessing this. The Vince McMahon "kiss my butt club." I’m sure you’ve heard of this. And they’re stupid parents were exposing their children to this. Boy, is that sending wonderful messages. Because when you have young kids and you take them to these places and they do this kind of behavior, obviously these kids must think it mustn’t be bad. It must be acceptable behavior, right? Well, this is what McMahon turned wrestling into. And excuse me if I don’t want any part of that or would have anything to do with that. And you can credit Steve Austin or the Rock or whoever else you want to credit, but they were all part of that garbage. Every one of them. And the drugs. Look at all the wrestlers that have died from drugs.

AC: No, I understand where you’re coming from. Would you say that your era of wrestling was more family-friendly?

BS: Mine? Absolutely. You never heard anything about…

AC: Well, not about drugs, but I remember lots of violence. I remember a lot of blood. I remember Lou Albano shoving a spike in somebody’s head.

BS: But don’t you see violence when you see football? Don’t you see violence when you see hockey?

AC: Well, you can make the same argument about the kind of stuff Steve Austin was doing. Beer drinking and that kind of thing. That’s all part of popular culture.

BS: Do you they have to use the F-word and everything else and guzzle beer on television for everyone to see? That’s the same thing? Tell me what other athletes you see doing interviews and using the words "F this" and "mother-F this" and all that kind of stuff.

AC: Well, part of the issue is that it’s not pure sports, right? It’s hard to compare WWE with the NFL or something like that.

BS: Well, I thought of myself in my era as much tougher than the sports that you mentioned. I’ll tell you why. We used boxing rings in my era, and those things were like concrete, my friend. And there was no padding in our bodies. And people can say we knew how to land, but when you’re getting bodyslammed or you’re taking back body drops and you come down seven feet, that’s not knowing how to land. You have to come down and land on that thing. There were no mats outside the ring. There were just concrete floors when you flew over the top rope. That’s why if you see some of the old timers today, you see them in wheel chairs, you see them in crutches, you see them in those walkers, whatever you call them, canes, because eof the abuse. You see, when we got hurt, it wasn’t like football or baseball when you go on the rehab. The promoters didn’t do that. They treated you like a dog. If you didn’t wrestle, you didn’t get paid. "You’re hurt? Your tough luck."

AC: But, that’s not good, right? (laughs)

BS: No, it’s not good.

AC: I mean, that’s bad. That the sport has evolved a little from that, I’d imagine is a good thing. Do you wish that there weren’t mats outside of the ring? At the end of the day, what professional wrestling is is simulated violence. In an ideal world, you shouldn’t be getting hurt.

BS: Well, let me tell you something. If you see me, you’ll see pretty nasty cauliflower ears. And I will show you a lot of guys from my era that have cauliflower ears and other things. Show me one of these guys today that have cauliflowered ears or anything like that.

AC: Well, why should they?

BS: They’re not wrestlers.

AC: Well, the sport’s changed a lot.

BS: Well, OK, the sport’s changed. And that’s why I don’t belong in it and that’s why I don’t want to have anything to do with it. It’s not my world.

AC: Well, nobody’s telling you to go wrestle. But I know from what I hear from fans, and myself, everyone would love to see you get your day in the sun there at the Hall of Fame. Even if it was the only time we ever saw you there, I know it would make a lot of fans happy to see you up there at the Hall of Fame. Forgetting about whether you’d be agreeable to it or not, if you were inducted into the Hall of Fame do you think that the ceremony, the video package that they would put together for you, the words that they would speak before they’d call you on stage – Do you envision all of that being respectful, or do you think it would be disrespectful and they would use the opportunity to somehow undercut you?

BS: I don’t know how they could be disrespectful. They can’t show any videos of me being vulgar in any way whether it be with my language or my behavior or anything like that. All they could show is different matches that I had. They might show some matches that maybe weren’t as good as I would have liked (laughs).

AC: No, my question is – Do you question whether they would handle your Hall of Fame induction in a respectful manner?

BS: They would have to, because I would get that microphone. And if they did anything that wasn’t respectful, believe you me, the whole world would hear about it, because I’d have my own time in front of that microphone to say what I would have to say.

AC: Have you watched any of the Hall of Fame inductions in recent years?

BS: No, I never watch any wrestling. Like I said, the only reason I watched Steve Austin that time was because he was guzzling the beer and bleeping out every other word. Somebody called it to my attention. I don’t want to watch it because it disgusts me.

AC: I can’t help but think that you might misunderstand a little bit what these Hall of Fame ceremonies look like. I’m not at all being a shill for WWE, and I’ve got loads of problems with what they do. I really do, and I call them out on it all the time. But I do think the Hall of Fame is one night of the year where they kind of give back. And it’s a real nice thing to sit in the building and watch a lot of the old timers – guys from your era – put on their Sunday best, dress up in their tuxedoes, and gather around. Guys from your era go up there and they tell a lot of great war stories from their day. You’ve got hundreds or wrestlers from the new generation dressed up and all ears, wide-eyed, listening these stories and paying respect to the guys who have paved the way, like yourself. It’s just like the one night of the year when all the nonsense is removed and it just really kind of pays respect and tribute to the pioneers, like yourself. And if you watched the way they put these video together, and the words that are spoken – these Hall of Fame induction speeches and the people who go up there – it’s really moving. It’s almost moving to tears, how well it’s put together. And whenever I’ve seen those, every year it happens, it’s like, "I wish they would do this for Bruno. If any one deserves this, Bruno deserves this." It’s part of the reason why I argued they should do this whether Bruno cooperates or not. Because, fans should see this. Fans should be reminded of the contributions Bruno Sammartino made.

BS: I don’t think the fans need that to know the contributions. Because when I make personal appearances, it’s all that I ever hear from the fans. "Bruno, you were my hero growing up."

AC: But, those are your fans. Those are the people who know you and are going out of their way to see you. There are millions of new fans who have never seen a Bruno Sammartino match and might not appreciate what an important piece of history you are, and should be reminded of it.

BS: (Pause) Well, you know, we can go round and round and round (laughing).

AC: I’m trying to convince you here! I’m thinking it’s not going to work.

BS: No, it’s not going to work. Because, for one thing, you don’t know me. You know how I looked at wrestling? I looked at wrestling as a job – as a way to make living for my family and to try to give them a better life than I had known as a kid, coming from Europe and being there during the War – all that hell that we went through. The other thing that drove me was the fact that I was headliner and people left their homes and drove their cars to get to the arena, pay for the parking, buy the ticket to come in. I’ve always felt extremely indebted to go out there and give it your 110 percent, because you owe it to them. Because they went way out of their way, and they are responsible for you being a so-called star. Because these idiots who think they’re superstars, they’re dreamers. Because without those fans, you are nothing. And the fans decide whether I’m going to be a superstar or I’m going to be just another jabroni on the card. Those were my two things, and I fell I accomplished that. There were many times where I’ve gone in the ring with a cracked rib, with a broken finger and I would tape it to the other finger. And, unfortunately, on those occasions, even though you did the best you could, I felt at times depressed because I felt the fans did not get their money’s worth on that particular night. But when I was on, when everything was OK, I’d go out there and I’d bust my butt for those fans, because that was the least that I could do for them. So when I got out of the business, I felt good. I felt that the business had been good to me, as far as the fans. And I know I gave the best I had to give to the fans, and nothing else mattered after that. I didn’t care about no Halls of Fames. I didn’t care about getting all kinds of praises or whatever. That kind of stuff was never a big deal for me. It never, never was, and it still isn’t today.

AC: Well, I wish you’d keep an open mind, at least. I know at the end of the day, it should be about your decision. But I do think fans benefit from something like that. I was in Orlando last year when Ric Flair was inducted into the Hall of Fame. And I know that for me, and the thousands of other fans that were in the building, it’s a great memory for us. It’s like we were able to witness this great piece of history. And it’s sort of fulfilling and satisfying for fans who have invested so much into these characters and into these personas to get to see them get their day. I think there are legions of Bruno Sammartino fans that would like to see that. They would like to have that moment.

BS: And there are also many, many fans – because I run into them every time I Make an appearance – who would, "Oh, for God’s sake. If there was a guy who I never thought would sell out, it would be Bruno. And he just sold out."

AC: I can almost assure you that those very same fans would be trying to buy a ticket (to the ceremony.) They’d be watching on TV. They’d have tears in their eyes. They’d have their best tuxedo on and they’d be giving you a standing ovation the moment you went up there. And again, I go back to Bret Hart. I mean, if anybody ever had a reason not to work with WWE again. And he’s been pretty consistent about it. He hasn’t really done much of anything with them. He worked with them in putting out a DVD a couple of years ago. But he’s kept his distance from them, and really did kind of sever that bond. But he showed up for the Hall of Fame, and he gave maybe the best speech in the history of the Hall of Fame, and got a really nice ovation. Very respectful. The next night, they do WrestleMania, and they like to bring out the inductees from the previous night out into the arena. He didn’t come out. He said, "I was here for the Hall of Fame, and nothing else. I’m not going to participate in anything else." And he hasn’t. And I don’t think anybody thinks Bret Hart sold out.

BS: I don’t want to say whether he sold out or not. That’s up to him and his own feelings, or conscience, or whatever. But just because he did what he did – He was interviewed and he said that he felt that I was wrong that I don’t go in it. Well, gee whiz. Before he went in, he felt so right about not going in. And then he changed his mind.

AC: I don’t know if that’s true. I remember him saying – and I’m not sure of this – but I’m pretty sure he said, even when he was at his angriest and right after the whole situation in Montreal, I’m pretty sure what he said was, "I’ll never go back. The only way I’ll ever go back is for the Hall of Fame, and that’s it." He felt he had earned that, and he wasn’t going to let a personal dispute with Vince McMahon take this away from him.

BS: Again, Vince McMahon was interviewed – and I didn’t see this for myself, because I never watch that – but he was interviewed by somebody… and the question was – and you may have heard this. I hope you did, because I’ve had many people tell me who said that they actually saw the interview – they said to McMahon, "Well, you know, you have this Hall of Fame every year. We heard rumors that you might be building a building in Connecticut for the Hall of Fame." And he kind of snickered and said, in other words, it’s "an illusion" of a Hall of Fame. He admitted it.

AC: Well, that’s the least of it – whether there’s a piece of real estate that’s called the Hall of Fame. That doesn’t take away the fact that there are some people who have been singled out because of their accomplishments. Whether there’s a place to visit – yeah, they probably should do that. But I don’t see that as any kind of deal breaker. Maybe they’ll one day they will get to do it.

BS: So you believe that if I don’t go into the Hall of Fame my accomplishments will not count?

AC: Oh, absolutely not. No, of course not. But it’s just – I don’t know. And I’ll be completely honest that I’m being selfish here, not just on the behalf of myself, but sort of speaking the average wrestling fan – and all of us speaking selfishly – there’s very much that mentality among wrestling fans of, "God, I’d really like to see Bruno go in. That would be really cool."

BS: And, like I say, most of the ones tell me – they pat me on my back and they say, "I really respect you for sticking to your guns."

AC: But, you know what? I really think to some extent you have to take that with a grain of salt. Because, of course they’re going to tell you that, you know? That you’re sticking to your guns. But really, I don’t know how to quantify it, but I can almost assure you that 100 times more people would like to see it than the some people who go up to you and say, "Don’t do it." Because, I’ll write these posts on Newsday and every year around that time we discuss who should get into the Hall of Fame. And it always starts with Bruno Sammartino, and then it’s everybody else. It’s always, "When are they going to get Bruno Sammartino in?"

BS: Well, do you remember that documentary that they did? It was a two-hour long documentary about pro wrestling?

AC: On A&E with Steve Allen? Yeah.

BS: Did you hear my name mentioned there one time?

AC: No, and I agree… But that’s 13 years ago.

BS: Do you know why it wasn’t mentioned?

AC: Because you don’t get along (with McMahon).

BS: Because McMahon demanded it. How do I know that? Because A&E got so much reaction (from people saying) "How the heck could you do a documentary of professional wrestling, and Bruno Sammartino, who dominated it for almost 20 years, wasn’t even mentioned?" They got so much on that that what happened was that A&E called me up and they wanted to come to Pittsburgh to do five minutes – actually I don’t know how long – to get all that off their back. A woman called and told me that they would love to do this, that they would come to Pittsburgh with their crew. And I said to her, even though I knew everything, I played it dumb and I said to her, "Wait a minute. You just did a documentary - two hours on professional wrestling. My name wasn’t even mentioned once. So how could I be so important to you that you would want to come here with a crew to do an interview or whatever it is that you’re after with me. You didn’t see me as worthy to be part of that history of wrestling." And she, more or less said, "Believe me, it wasn’t that we weren’t interested. The circumstances…" I said, "Please, be big enough to admit to me that McMahon didn’t want my name mentioned. Because if you didn’t agree to that, he wouldn’t have given you film clips, he wouldn’t have given you all that stuff." She never said, "yeah," but she more or less said, "Well, you know. What can I say?" And I said, "I don’t know what you can say, but I know what I can say. You can stick your crew and your members and your story you want to do and shove it lady, because I’m not interested." And then I closed the phone.

AC: I certainly think there was a long period of time there when Vince McMahon and WWE forgot its history and wouldn’t acknowledge it. I do think a lot’s changed though.

BS: You know why it’s changed? Because it backfired on them, that’s why.

AC: Yeah. I think there was a lot of resentment. You’re right. And I think there was a lot of fans saying let’s not act like these people didn’t exist. But you look at WWE’s 24/7 On Demand channel, where your matches are on all the time, and the MSG Classics show that they do over the summer, and the action figures.

BS: But don’t think McMahon does that because he wants to publicize Bruno. He puts on there what sells and what’s going to make him money.

AC: Well, I think you’re answering your question. That’s just it. He knows that you’re important and that putting a Bruno Sammartino match on in the New York market is going to get some viewers.

BS: If he can make money from it – just like he does with the Hall of Fame and everything else. He sells it to 126 countries where they sell the DVDs from the Hall of Fame and all that. And what does he give the wrestlers who come into to the Hall of Fame? He throws them a bone. But then he can be so generous to people who never contributed anything to professional wrestling, who even make fun of it and joke about it. And to them he can show his generosity and what a big, big man he is in professional wrestling.

AC: Well, I agree that if what they offered you is $5,000, that’s absurd. I agree. But I wish you guys could arrive at some sort of deal. I think there’s a lot of money to be made in a Bruno Sammartino DVD compilation.

BS: But you wouldn’t see it. Look, look. It’s not just a question of the money. I don’t know if maybe you’re not understanding me. It’s not a question of money, and Bruno’s money hungry because he wants a lot of money. No. It’s because he can’t have his way. I will refuse to have him have his way. When I say treat me with respect like you did with Tyson and all these guys, it’s because he gave millions of dollars to Tyson, hundreds of thousands of dollars to other guys. But yet, he’s such a – whatever he is – that he wants Bruno bad, but he wants him on his own terms, because then he wins all the way around. You have to know this guy’s mentality. If it’s so important to him, why doesn’t he do this? Say, "Here, I tell you what Bruno. To show that I want to be fair, you have an attorney, we have our attorney. We’ll draw a contract where you’ll get X amount of dollars up front and then you’ll get 20 percent" – and I’m just using numbers here. He won’t do that. Because then he’s meeting your demands and he feels like you win and he loses. You have to know McMahon. You guys just don’t know this guy. I’ve known him for forty-something years. You guys just don’t know him. You just don’t know how his mind works.

AC: I certainly know the stories, and I certainly believe what you’re saying about that at the end of the day he’s got to win.

BS: And he ain’t going to win with me. I’m sorry is some fans are going to be disappointed. Gee I’m sorry.

AC: I don’t know if there’s a way that maybe you could meet half way – again, just speaking for the fans who would like to see it.

BS: With him, there’s no half way. There’s no half way with McMahon.

AC: Well, I wonder just because they’re running out of guys to induct. That Hall of Fame pretty much has got everybody who needs to be in it except for a few guys. The couple other guys who they’ve said they’d never do business with – Randy Savage – they just put out a DVD with him. You wonder if they’ll get him in the Hall of Fame. Bob Backlund apparently they’ve been talking to.

BS: I don’t even know what problem they have with Bob Backlund.

AC: I don’t know if there is one, but for some reason he hasn’t gotten in, and he sort of stands out as somebody who should have been in a long time ago. But they put something up recently on their web site about him – a big, long story. So you’d think they’re at least on speaking terms. If they do Savage and they do Backlund – who are both well below you, I think – that’s it. It’s all about Bruno. It’s the one glaring, big, black mark on the Hall of Fame. Bruno Sammartino isn’t in it, and until he is, it’s not quite legitimate.

BS: Well you know what then? If that’s the case – what you’re saying that all that’s left is Bruno – then let him recognize that and let him come forward and be fair about the whole thing.

AC: Well, then let’s pose it this way. If McMahon was fair about it, and approached you in a respectful manner with a fair deal, would be able to do business with him.

BS: I’d say very possibly. Possibly. It would have to be something that we’d both have to give and take some. You know what I mean? I can’t give you specifics right now. It’s something you’d really have to think about. But I would never say to you, "No, it’s impossible." I would say – I don’t know. There would have to be a lot of stuff that would have to be straightened out and we’d have to talk about."

AC: Would any terms of you having any kind of business arrangement with WWE require some changes to their product?

BS: Yeah, because here’s another thing. And maybe you’re one of those who believes that McMahon is trying very hard to change to become more kid-friendly, because I’ve heard those terms lately. But what a lot of people don’t know is that there have been a lot of pressures from the sponsors who have been getting a lot of negativity from the fans and some of them dropped out. And they picked up other sponsors, but not with the same amount of money. And I understand that some of the stations were getting a lot of pressure and who were, in turn, coming down on McMahon and saying, "Hey, you’ve got to make changes because we’re getting a lot of flack here and we can’t do this." My point to you is that it’s not McMahon who would change a darn thing if it were up to him. Only if he’s pressured by the advertisers and by the stations. McMahon himself would go even lower than he’s done, and I don’t know how you can go lower than burying people alive, crucifying somebody, or running people over with cars in parking lots. I don’t know, but he has always managed to find something even lower than what he’s done before. So this is not McMahon that’s changing in any shape or form. It’s the pressure that’s being put on McMahon. And a lot of people don’t know that and maybe don’t really believe that this is the guy. "Oh, no, no. It’s Vince – Vince wants to become more kid-friendly and more family-friendly and all that." That’s such nonsense. It’s ridiculous. It’s such nonsense. It’s pressure that’s being put on him.

AC: Well, I agree with that. And at the end of the day it’s about what will make the most money. And I think if, tomorrow, he thought that the opportunity to make the most money would be with a family-friendly, cleaned-up product, then he would do that. I don’t know that he’s loyal to any particular brand of wrestling. I think he’s going to do what he thinks will maximize viewership. Because, you know, he did the family-friendly route for a long time.

BS: Not really. But let me tell you something about how we all knew about McMahon and his brains. When he was commentating with me – I don’t know how far back you go, but for a while, while I was wrestling I was also doing commentating from 1978 to 1981. And he and I were doing to commentating out of Allentown and Hamburg for all our TVs. And anyway, the guys used to talk privately and say, Holy smokes. I wonder what the heck… Can you imagine what would happen if the old guy dies and this guy takes over?" Everybody saw (it.) They’d say, this guy – he’s not normal. They guys used to say this. So when he became a promoter, we saw what direction he took it. And he had some powerful help from guys like Dick, what’s his name?

AC: Ebersol?

BS: Dick Ebersol, to really open doors for him, and other people. It enabled him to really go nationwide and run opposition to the other promoters. Eventually, he killed it for himself and for other promoters, because nobody then could draw the houses anymore because all the crap that took place at the time. And he put everybody out of business.

AC: Yeah, but he did it all the way to the bank, right? It’s sort of hard to argue, to some extent, with his tactics.

BS: Well, he fed his pocket, but how many wrestlers did he put out of business? When you had 25, 30 territories, do you know how many wrestlers you had at the time? Go from that day to now, and see how many wrestlers are out there.

AC: Yeah, but the ones who are employed are probably making more money than they would have otherwise, right?

BS: There’s no question about it. There’s a few who made more money than guys like me, who were on top for a long time, could ever imagine.

AC: What’s the biggest year you had money-wise?

BS: $250,000. That’s it. But, in all honesty, I was very grateful.

AC: That’s a lot of money, when you’re taking about the 60’s and 70’s.

BS: For me that was a lot, because when you talk about my background, being in Europe during the war and all that kind of stuff, to me I couldn’t believe that I could be in that bracket. Now, I realize in comparison to today it was pocket change. But for me, I was very, very grateful. I didn’t make the kind of money that today I have money to burn. But my kids are all grown. It’s just me and my wife. We live in the same home where we’ve lived for quite a few years. And we’re comfortable. I go back to the Old Country. We just had our 50^th anniversary and we celebrated in Europe. So, you know, we’re not people that need a whole lot, you know what I mean? So believe me, I’m not jealous of anybody because I’m happy where I’m at at this stage if my life. So money isn’t the big issue. It’s the principal.

AC: I understand. I certainly agree that you deserve all the respect in the world. Hopefully one day Vince McMahon will appreciate that and will approach you respectfully and give you your just due. Again, just as a fan, I’d love to see it happen. My father is getting up there…

BS: Your father?

AC: Yeah, my father watched you wrestle a bunch of times.

BS: Where are you from again?

AC: I live in New York. I grew up in the Bronx, and my dad came to New York from Nicaragua in the 1950’s and would go watch you all the time in the Garden.

BS: Well, yeah, I was going to say that if your dad was from that era, ask him how many times Bruno Sammartino headlined Madison Square Garden. Ask him how many were near within a fraction of headlining the Garden.

AC: Yeah, and it would be a neat thrill for me in my father’s lifetime to watch you be inducted to the Hall of Fame, alongside my dad.

BS: Well, go have a talk with Vince McMahon.