Transcript of full William Wheeler interview

WILLIAM WHEELER

My name is Bill Wheeler, I'm 84 years old, a member of the Tuskegee Airmen since 1943. I originally grew up in Detroit, Michigan, and when I went to college I heard about the Tuskegee Airmen being started and I decided I wanted to be one of them, especially when I saw all the girls flocked around one of the guys who had graduated ... When I heard about the Tuskegee Airmen flying project being started, I became intensely interested in it, although I didn't care for this country at that time ...

Q. Let's start with why you wanted to be a Tuskegee Airman. You were in college at the time, tell us about your being at college, what college it was and how you learned about the Tuskegee Airmen first of all.

Wheeler: I learned about the Tuskegee Airmen when I was sitting in the lunchroom at Howard University and I heard a big commotion at the entrance door, and I looked over to see what was happening…and all of a sudden, the door burst open and there were about 10 or 12 young ladies escorting this guy who looked like a pilot. He was dressed like an airman and I went over to him and I said, 'Are you a Tuskegee Airman?' I'd heard about them. He said, 'Yes. I just graduated.' And I said 'Really?" And when I saw all the girls crowded round him I said that's what I want to be. I wanted to be a Tuskegee Airman.

Q. How did you go from wanting to be an airman to actually being accepted into the program?

Wheeler: I was in danger of being drafted at that time because the war had started. I didn't want to be drafted into the infantry or in some other branch of service that I would hate. I'd always liked airplanes. My dad and I used to go out to the airport and watch the planes come in at Detroit County Airport. I just decided that, even though I didn't like this country at that time, I felt if I could join the Tuskegee Airmen and make a creditable record, or help them make a creditable effort, perhaps we would be treated more like equals. Because at that time, it was another world. We were treated like third-class citizens. Not second-class, third-class. Couldn't go into restaurants and eat; couldn't go to a movie and sit on the orchestra floor. They would usher us up into the balcony. I did that once. If I wanted to get a sandwich in a restaurant, I'd have to go around in an alleyway, where it was dark, greasy, roaches, mice all over the place, and they would hand the sandwich out to a person. But I wouldn't do that. When I saw what it looked like I didn't want anything from that restaurant. But that's the way it was in those days. If I tried on a pair of trousers, I had to keep the pair of trousers because they would consider it contaminated if I put my black leg in the pants. Or if I put on a shirt or a jacket. I could buy it but I could not try it on, and if I didn't like it, put it back on the shelf ... that's ridiculous, but that's the way it was in those days, that's why I had problems liking this country then, aside from what I experienced as a child.

Q. Do you consider yourself an activist, and in what way?

Wheeler: I considered myself an activist because I had to fight when I was going to school. There were kids who didn't like black kids. White kids that didn't like black kids. One day I was coming home from a football practice and cars screeched up to the curb where I was walking, and three white guys with bats got out of the car and they started coming over toward me, and I knew what they wanted to do because we had been having race riots and all kinds of confrontation between the races. Because the white power structure was not supporting us. They didn't want blacks to work in the factories and displace some of the whites. So there was a lot of animosity that went on ...

Q. What is the significance, or what do you think being a Tuskegee Airman, being a black pilot -- what did that do for race relations or how white folks thought of black men after that?

Wheeler: There's an interval before we gained any modicum of respect, all right. When we first went over -- the first group that went over was the 99th Pursuit Squadron. And they were put out to pasture, literally, in a non-functioning, non-combat area because those who were running the squadrons and divisions at that time didn't want to be associated with blacks. But there was one instance where we were put on patrol in North Africa and we ran into a bunch of Gerrys -- that's the Germans -- the enemy, and I wasn't there at that time, but six planes were shot down, six of their planes. Once the word got out that we could fire a gun and hit what we were aiming at, besides flying a plane at 450 miles an hour, then they started thinking a little bit better of us. But at that time we were not known as the Tuskegee Airmen. That appellation didn't come along until the '70s, when we formed a national organization in Detroit. It was called Tuskegee Airmen Incorporated. And from that time on, we became known as the Tuskegee Airmen. And the Tuskegee Airmen consisted of not just men but of women as well. Did you know that? Yeah. The nurses, some of the doctors, the people who worked in the PX's, and the stores. The assistants to the doctors and dentists, they were all considered Tuskegee Airmen in the final analysis, when it came to counting noses.

Q. Let's go back to the formation of the Tuskegee Airmen. The history books tell us this was -- the military structure --thought of this as an experiment. Up until then, they didn't think black men had the intelligence, didn't have the courage, didn't have the physical capabilities of being a pilot. In that regard then, what does being a Tuskegee Airman mean, in terms of what you guys were able to accomplish and then how that changed how white folks viewed the capabilities of black people, black men in particular, in these higher kind of echelons of battle?

Wheeler: It happened by accident. We were escorting bombers before the bomber crews knew that we were black. And on one occasion one of the bombers had to make a forced landing at our base, which was in Italy, right on the spur, just above the heel, on the Adriatic Sea. When he landed, he and his crew got out of the plane and they started looking aghast because all they could see was blacks. They couldn't believe that this was a black base that they had landed on. But they also found out at that time, because we had a red tail, that this was the group that had saved some of their buddies. And in that regard, the word started spreading around through that particular Air Force, I think it was the 15th Air Force, that blacks could fly. They could fight. They could shoot. They could do anything that anyone else could do. So it was a revelation to them. And we started gaining respect from the bomber pilots because they recognized our capabilities and that we would stick with them, even when we were attacked by enemy planes ... That's how we gained our respect. We stayed with them, but that's because our commander, Benjamin O. Davis Jr., who was a graduate of West Point ... he said there's nothing more important to you guys than protecting the bombers, and if I see anyone leaving the bombers to try and go off and shoot a plane down, leaving the bombers exposed, then you're going to have to deal with me ... he set the tone for us. As it turned out, that was our claim to fame, our primary claim to fame.

Q. Is it true that your group never lost a bomber to enemy fire?

Wheeler: One of our accomplishments was that it was known for decades that we did not lose one bomber to enemy aircraft fire. Because we had a close protection around them. We formed a perimeter around the bombers that we escorted and in order for these enemy planes to shoot these bombers down, they had to come through us, and naturally we wouldn't let them come through us. So we had a record, which was good for about 40 to 50 years until about the time we were supposed to be getting our Congressional Medal. Right after that, some guy from some other Air Force said, 'Hey, they lost two planes. They lost two planes that they were escorting.' Our retort was: 'We don't know about that, but even if we lost two planes it wasn't like losing 100 planes like some of the white groups did. What is two planes compared to that?'

Q. Can you tell us about coping with the fear of being involved in your life, and did you ever falter?

Wheeler: I think fear and courage are bedfellows. That's the way I feel about it because if you don't fear certain things that are happening around you, like when flak is exploding all around you ... you could be hit by just a piece of shrapnel that could kill you, put your plane out of commission and it would go down in flames. That was a fearful thing, and I'm sure each time we passed through the flak, each of the pilots had some sense of fear or apprehension that his number could be next. But fortunately, our planes were so fast that most of us could get through the flak before they could actually determine at what height we were and what speed we were going ...

Q. What about the prejudice you faced in the military and after?

Wheeler: The prejudice that we faced was abhorrent. We had senior officers who did not want us to be able to fly. They hated black people in many instances. The prejudice was so thick and heavy as it was perpetrated on us by our senior officers, who were white, to the extent that they started making up their own rules, which violated the credo of the United States services. We were officers and gentlemen, and yet they did not want us to go into the Officer's Club, as an example. The bomber pilots ... set up a civil action ... what they did was they went into the Officer's Club, which they were being forbidden to go into, and 101 of them were arrested. They were isolated. They were put in their own quarters and they couldn't come out of their quarters. Eventually, most of them were freed. But there was one gentleman ... he was a wonderful guy, his name was William Terry, he was from L.A. He was deemed to be the ringleader of this action. They arrested him and they put him in jail, and eventually he was let loose. But his life was ruined because he was a lawyer, he was an attorney and he was not able to practice his specialty ... They didn't want us to succeed ...

Q. There are different kinds of fear. You're in battle and that's one kind. What about growing up in segregated Detroit? You've already told us about the race riots and narrowly escaping getting beat up by white guys with baseball bats. Were you fearful in that environment? If so, why, if not, why not?

Wheeler: I was not fearful because I was pretty well-known and accepted because I was on the football team. I didn't tell you that when these guys got near me, I backed up against the wall to defend myself, then all of a sudden out of the front seat of the car came a voice saying, 'Hey guys, that's Bill Wheeler. He's on the football team, he's OK.' But if I hadn't been on the football team I might not be speaking to you today. OK? That's the way it was in those days. There were riots, there were lynchings, there were all kinds of confrontations ... I was fearful that some of my friends would get killed ... but apparently I was OK because I was on the team.

Q. You've told us a few times of your ambivalence toward the government because of the discrimination, the oppression of blacks. And yet you fought for the country.

Wheeler: I can explain that. When I grew up all I could see as I grew up was that my dad had a job because he had been a great athlete in high school and college. So he was given a job with the city. He was provided a car, a salary. We were able to buy a nice little house. But it was in the ghetto. And I'm still living in a ghetto ... What happened there is that I could see that the men who didn't have jobs and no electricity in their homes, some of them had no running water. For the toilet, they had to go out in a shack in the back with two holes carved in the seat. Overall it was just a terrible experience that I went through and I felt so sorry ... I grew up hating the system that I was growing up in and living in. I swore that when I got out of school I was not going to stand for that type of segregation. So when I had to make a determination as to which school I was going to, I had to take into account that if I went to the Detroit schools, the colleges there, I would still be suffering the same type of discrimination and segregation that I hated. So I finally felt, well, if I could go to school in Washington, D.C., the nation's capital, I'd be much better off. So I applied to Howard University and they accepted me ... I was enjoying myself on the campus ... but when I left the campus and went downtown, I found the same types of horrid discrimination that I had experienced in Detroit. I knew I had made a mistake. I should have stayed in Detroit, lived at home and saved a lot of money ...

Now, why would I enlist in the service, right, fight for a country that treated you so badly? And there are two reasons that I give my audiences. The first one is, it's my country, too. And If I can try to help change it I'll try to do that. If I could get in the Air Corps and we could make a creditable record, then perhaps they will accept us more as equals. But I knew it wouldn't be everyone. It would only be the upper crust of the black people that would be treated that way. Because as you know now, those people who are underprivileged are still being tossed around by this country ... Nothing much has changed for them. But education has been a key to permit those who aspire to better things, to get their degrees, and then they have a better opportunity to bring themselves out of the morass that this country was in at that time ... But the other reason I determined that I was going to fight for this country, even though it treated me badly, is because ... blacks have fought for this country in every war, even before they were freed in the Civil War ... and I decided that I was going to keep up that tradition. How could I let that tradition down? Because blacks have fought in every war in which this country was participating and I could do no less, even though I hated this country at the time ... Do I hate the country today? I hate some of the things that happened here, yes. But it's the best country in the world ... that's why everyone in the other countries wants to come here, because you do have opportunity here. The opportunity for the oppressed people, the downtrodden people, are getting a little bit better ... but right now it's not equal and it's not fair. And I have friends who are suffering. I wish I could help them ... but it's not to be for me because I didn't go into one of the professions ... it is the best country in the world. And if I had to do it all over again, I'd enlist again for the right reason. That was the right reason back then, but today I wouldn't enlist today for the reason that they're fighting today. No way.

Q. What is your greatest accomplishment or proudest moment, and how would you like to be remembered?

Wheeler: My proudest moment was when I met that young lady. I had just come back from the war ... [in N.Y.] I met her shortly after I got here ... I'm 22 years old, I'm on the prowl, right ... We were married three months later. ... when I saw her [his late wife Minnie], I just knew she was the one. God led me to her ...

Q. How would you like to be remembered?

Wheeler: I would like to be remembered as a family man who shouldered his responsibilities, took care of his family, fought for his country, even under negative circumstances. And I'd also like to be remembered for making presentations to schools ... and I hope that as a result of these presentations I've helped some of these students to either get on the right track or stay on the right track. Because that's what we preach. Get your education, try to get a PhD ... it's a very rewarding hobby [speaking about the Tuskegee Airmen] ...

When I got out of service and came to New York ... [he and other Tuskegee Airmen] wanted to be airline pilots, we were rejected ... offered only to clean airplanes. Collectively we gave them a sign of rejection. I think you know what the sign is. We didn't go for that. So I had to find a job. By this time I was thinking of marrying this young lady. I started working at a place called Railway Express. It was the predecessor of UPS ... [manhandled by a supervisor, Wheeler punched the man and lost his job] ... I did sales work…vice president in charge of all publications, first decent job. Then I went to Fairchild, which had manufactured one of the planes I flew, 347 ... after that I went to a bank ... I worked two jobs at times ... [I have three sons] I've had a happy life except the last three years when I lost her [his wife Minnie]. I'll never get over it, because she was everything to me ... I throw myself into being a Tuskegee Airman ... and it helps me because it gets me out of this house ...

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